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Welcome to This Week in Benefits, a new biweekly podcast from Mployer Advisor, the company that is changing the way employers search, evaluate, and select insurance advisors online.
In each episode, our team will bring you the latest news and industry updates in the world of employee benefits. We will break down top headlines, bring you interviews with industry insiders, and highlight market trends and stories we’re following.
In case you missed Episode 14, click here to listen and here for the show notes.
Date: November 2, 2022
Episode Season and Number: Season 1, Episode 15
Episode Title: A Conversation With a Chief Diversity Officer on Strategic DEI Initiatives and Nurturing an Inclusive Workplace
In this week's episode, Abbey Dean (Mployer Advisor's Director of Content) speaks with Ron Snitker about his new position as Chief Diversity Officer at Waller, a prestigious law firm based in Nashville, Tennessee. Snitker defines DEI, discusses misconceptions around the purpose of DEI initiatives, and details why nurturing inclusive workforces is critical for any workplace.
To listen to Episode 15 of This Week in Benefits, click here.
About Ron Snitker, Chief Diversity Officer at Waller
LinkedIn Jobs on the Rise 2022
Diversity Wins: How Inclusion Matters by McKinsey & Company
SHRM: Diversity, Equity & Inclusion
Mansfield Rule Certification From Diversity Lab
The Benefits of Diversity in the Workplace
5 Ways Employee Benefit Plans Can Attract and Retain Diverse Talent
Abbey Dean: Hi everyone, and welcome to this week's episode of This Week in Benefits, a podcast from the team at Mployer Advisor where we discuss all things employee benefits. I'm your host, Abbey Dean, Mployer Advisor's Director of Content, and thanks for being here today. For this episode, I am going to be speaking with Ron Snitker. Ron is the newly appointed Chief Diversity Officer of Waller, which is a prestigious law firm here in Nashville, although they do have several other locations. And this is a podcast episode that he and I have actually been emailing about for, oh gosh, two or three months now. I saw when he was promoted to this position, I believe it was in the summer, and I emailed him at the time asking like, oh, congratulations on the new role. That's so exciting. I'd love to speak with you, because as you guys know, if you follow our content diversity and DEI is something that we've talked about extensively, but we haven't been able to talk to someone who holds the role of Chief Diversity Officer or has similar responsibilities associated with that title.
And so I thought it would be a wonderful opportunity to kind of dig in more to what someone in that role does. What are their responsibilities? What are their KPIs? What preconceived notions do people approach them with? What are the short and long-term strategies? And of course, Ron is maybe four months into this job so he cannot answer all of those and they would also have different, also be different answers for anyone based on their job or their industry even. That being said, we are still going to delve into some of that today and I think he does a really incredible job at clearly and succinctly discussing why having someone in an organization who shepherds and guides your DEI initiatives is critical. And he also explains a little bit personally why this is something he wants to do and why this slight change in career is an exciting time for him. So with that, here is my conversation with Ron.
Hi everyone, and welcome to today's episode of This Week in Benefits. I am very happy to be joined today by Ron Snitker. He is going to talk to us a little bit about his new position and he's going to let me quiz him, which I'm very excited about. Thank you for being here today, Ron.
Ron Snitker: Abbey, thank you for having me.
Abbey Dean: So tell everyone listening a little bit about what we'll be talking about today.
Ron Snitker: Sure. So first and foremost, good job on my name Ron Snitker. Yes, my pronouns are yes, absolutely <laugh>. My pronouns are he/him. I am Waller's Chief Diversity Officer as of June of this year. And just quickly on Waller, we're a 300 attorney corporate law firm with offices across the south with the national client base. Prior to that, I have been the executive director for our financial services industry team, which means I was leading business development for the firm in that area. I have roughly 25 years experience with 20 of those years working in marketing, sales, client management and administrative roles for major financial services firms. And I was recruited to join Waller in 2015 by a very charismatic recruiter that we have here by the name of Bobby Weiss. And for me, the timing was just right I wanted to join the firm, really loved the people, very excited about the opportunity and now that they've moved me into this chief diversity officer role, I'm continuing my professional journey with them.
Abbey Dean: And you are based in Nashville, Tennessee, just for everyone's reference as well.
Ron Snitker: Yes, thank you. I would be remiss if we didn't mention that we are here in Music City and I'm based here. I'm originally from the state of Iowa and relocated here in the mid-nineties after my undergraduate degree. And I consider this home and I consider myself a native. I know that's not official, but with at least 25 years here, I feel like I can call it home.
Abbey Dean: I think 25 years, warrants being a native. I don't know what the cutoff is, but I think you're well within it.
Ron Snitker: Yeah. Well thank you. I appreciate that.
Abbey Dean: Of course. Congratulations on your promotion. So, your new title, Chief Diversity Officer. Diversity is something we get asked about a lot here from our HR leaders and our HR managers listening into our webinars and our blogs. And I kind of wanted to unpack what your job is about, your responsibilities. And I know it's a new job title, but I think it'd be interesting. It's almost kind of like a case study. We've seen so much interest, not just recently, but I think probably especially recently, around DEI initiatives or DEIB initiatives too. And so that's kind of what we're here to talk about today. So again, congratulations on your promotion. It's very exciting.
Ron Snitker: Thank you.
Abbey Dean: Yes. Can you provide, oh sorry, go ahead.
Ron Snitker: No, you're good. One, I think that it warrants, maybe just a quick background on how Waller got to this point with having a Chief Diversity Officer. I think for many of your listeners, they're going to be in various stages of their journey of their diversity journey, rather. And Waller's journey is not a short one.
We've been around 117 years. This law firm started in 1905. Our diversity committee has been active for 20 years and for our firm we are, as I mentioned, a 300 person firm. And the board had been considering a long time, a full-time for a long time, having a full-time resource to drive our mission around diversity, equity, and inclusion in a way that we haven't been able to previously without a dedicated person. So for some organizations that could be hiring a coordinator or maybe even administrative type position just to help manage the activities of a diversity committee or the program. But for Waller, it was really the decision was made to hire someone that was going to sit at the top and help set strategy and execute on that strategy.
Abbey Dean: I see. Thank you for providing that extra context. That is very helpful cause like you said, at all different stages.
Ron Snitker: And really for the title Chief Diversity Officer, my role is really to just be the principal architect of our programs that are in the DEI space. And I don't do that alone. It takes a village. And so I'm responsible for doing that in conjunction with our diversity committee and also our leadership here. It has to be very much a top down approach and an all hands on deck kind of policy when it comes to working with diversity, equity, and inclusion. And as far as my focus and this, like I said, it can be defined by the organization and probably would differ based on industry or even maturity level of the organization. But for us that coverage would include the areas of diverse recruiting, retention, firm culture, our programming in the diversity space leadership development, and then also community engagement.
Abbey Dean: Hey, everyone editing Abbey here. Quickly chiming in to let you know that there was some technical difficulties with the recording when it came to me asking Ron this next question. But basically what he is about to explain is how he got to this Chief Diversity Officer role. I make a very funny quip about how, I imagine that 10 years ago he did not imagine himself being in this position. So what was it that excited him about the role? Why was it important to him and why was it something he decided to take on?
Ron Snitker: Absolutely, and I appreciate you asking this question and also just being very mindful that for some folks this may be a very personal response and for me it does involve that really taking on this role was a culmination of my passion and work in human and civil rights. I am a member of the LGBT community and I've been actively involved with in leading diversity related organizations in and out of the office for 20 plus years. And I became publicly passionate about DE&I and when I did come out at work shortly after the millennium. So let's take a step back to the early 2000s. And for me, I had a pretty easy go of it personally, professionally coming out as a gay male. And at the time, unless your employer had policies against terminating employees for being gay or you lived in a state with protections, your livelihood was at risk.
So I felt very fortunate to be working for an international firm that did value diversity and protections for their diverse employees, including the LGBT employees. And of course all that changed in June 2020 when the Supreme Court found that workers cannot be fired for being gay or transgender. But I fully respect and understand that while the interpretation of those laws have changed, bigotry and discrimination still remain. So for me, this has been, you know I often talk about personal brand in my conversations with business development professionals and our attorneys here, it's become, for me, really just second nature to be an advocate for civil and human rights. And I've been, like I said, active for now two decades that the firm really felt like this was an opportunity for someone that could execute and set strategy as well as be very familiar with the personnel and the culture here at the firm to be successful in the role.
Abbey Dean: Now there's been studies in research that have underscored the inherent value in higher performance linked to diversity for decades, but it is a buzzword right now can you explain, in this case, for anyone listening about DEI and explain why, in your mind this is a must do for companies instead of just a nice idea.
Ron Snitker: Sure. And I think that was a great lead into this question. I will preface my answer with saying that if there are folks that think DEI is just now becoming a buzzword or a trend, they're out of touch. But I understand your perspective. I think it's interesting too, it's proven that it's becoming more prevalent and popular. I did see in some of my research that diversity positions obviously have become more prominent following the social justice movement of 2020. And I found a LinkedIn report that said that it's the second fastest growing job title in the US over the past five years. And to put that into perspective, the number one job title that's at the top of that list was vaccine specialist.
Which, to put that all into perspective really kind of makes that impactful to hear that statistic. And regarding the answer to the business case question, I often say that it should just be because it's the right thing to do, but I know in business we should not make decisions solely on our gut or necessarily on what we think is the right thing to do. So I do think if you look at the research and the results that you can make a pretty easy case. So McKinsey did a study in recent years where they found that companies with diverse management teams outperform industry averages by 35%. And Forbes also released some information about inclusive teams making better business decisions than individuals 87% of the time. And that's 30 points higher than homogeneous teams. So we often hear diversity brings this diverse thought and perspectives, and that's proven in the data.
They also, McKinsey published in this series in recent years that they did this data set over 15 countries with more than a thousand large companies. And it makes the case for both gender diversity and ethnic and cultural diversity in corporate leadership and the performance numbers kind of speak for themselves. So if you look at the top quartile of gender diversity for executive teams, they were 25% more likely to have above average profitability than companies in the fourth quartile. And that is substantive when you're talking to leadership and investors on why the case for diversity is important. They also found that the companies that had, for example, 30% women executives on their team, they were more likely to outperform companies that had a percentage that was in the 10% to 30% range. And in the ethnic and cultural diversity areas, that difference was 36% difference in profitability when you have a diverse ethnic and cultural leadership team versus those in the lowest performers.
Abbey Dean: No, I think that's a really thorough answer. Thank you for sharing all of that wonderful research. Also, for everyone listening, I'll be sure to link that wonderful McKinsey study in some of the other research Ron mentioned in our show notes, so everyone can go look and explore after this as well. Ron, when you were thinking about this job or what you would like for this role to be were there certain myths or misconceptions around DEI or DEI programs that you've heard or have been confronted with?
Ron Snitker: Well, let me ask you first, how long is this program? And then I can give my answer.
Abbey Dean: <laughs>.
Ron Snitker: I do have some that I do want talk about and share and there are four of them. But I think first and foremost, people don't understand the difference between diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I wanted to, if I could just take a quick moment for your listeners to define the difference between those. So diversity is really describing the variety of differences that we have amongst people. So that can be your race, ethnicity, nationality, gender, sexual identity, disability, neurodiversity, and other markers if you will. Equity is really the concept of providing equal opportunities through a personalized approach. So that's kind of the concept of leveling the playing field. So lastly, inclusion really is the desired outcome that we want. It's ensuring that those who fall under the title of diverse genuinely feel safe welcome and included in the spaces where they are. Secondly, on myths, I think people think that diversity, equity and inclusion will just happen.
And I am a firm believer that we have to be intentional if we want to see equality and inclusion across not only our country but in the world. Thirdly, I think that people think that DE&I only benefits minority groups and I know we'll talk about this and have talked about this in questions regarding the fact that this really benefits the whole. And as we've talked about performance either in teams and in profitability in organizations, the numbers are clear there. And then lastly, I would say another myth that I'm often confronted with is really that DEI is about hiring less qualified candidates or filling quotas, and that's certainly not the case at all.
Abbey Dean: Thank you for breaking that down and providing those definitions. That's very helpful. I think if I could venture, I think the other thing just based on questions we've received before from listeners and comments is that depending on the industry or the size of the workforce or even the region of the country, some people say like, oh, well, how can we have national like DEI like standards, those same standards can't possibly be met in my 50 person office in rural Iowa or something. And I don't know if you've seen or heard anything like that, but that's something we see a lot. And so because of that it's hard to establish certain practices in that way. What do you think about that?
Ron Snitker: Well, I will agree with you insofar as I think everybody, like I said early on, is in a different spot on this journey for diversity, equity, inclusion. But I also don't wanna give people an out that are here or that are listening for you. You or your organizations making small steps might be monumental for that employee that does work in your 50 person office and rural Iowa that identifies as LGBT or may have a different religious faith than the typically Christian area of your country. So while I do hear that, and I do believe that people say that, that it's could be a big nut to crack, I feel like any incremental change that we can make within our own lives and that sphere of influence that we have, we owe it to each other as a society to do so.
Abbey Dean: Absolutely. I also think that post pandemic, with so many companies moving to remote work policies or more flexible schedules, I've seen a lot of interesting articles and research about how that could also expand opportunities for diversity and recruitment efforts. Do you think there's something to that?
Ron Snitker: 100%. Just anecdotally, I mean, look at what that allows people to do as far as flexibility in their personal and professional lives and combining the both of them to really perform at your best. I also just see even within our own organizations, the change of office dress code and previously before the pandemic, this thought that maybe I needed to dress professionally or my definition of professional appearance might not include having a mountain man beard and a long mustache, which if your listeners see a photo of me, I do have a full beard now. And in previous times and in other employers, I would've been very nervous to even grow facial hair previously. And I think that sense of self-expression and self-identity is going to be, I hope has been more embraced by the pandemic.
We were all very humbled by having to be wiping down our groceries and having people leave something at the door without interacting with them personally for fear of our personal health. And it kind of changed our dynamic, and I think we've given ourselves that grace to really let people be more authentic at work, and that involves kind of changing the norm of what we think about the workplace.
Abbey Dean: Absolutely, and I think it also gets to that idea of company culture that you mentioned early on too, and
Ron Snitker: 100%.
Abbey Dean: You working toward creating the space and the company that you want to be and constantly evolving or auditing or protecting whatever you want that vision of what you want it to be.
Ron Snitker: Agreed.
Abbey Dean: In terms of KPIs and metrics for success surrounding DEI or DEIB programs that is also something that can be complex and of course would need to be unique to each workplace. Obviously you have not been at this position for very, can you share any insights or any perspective for those listening about especially if they're trying to stand up or re-energize their own program in their workplace? Do you have any advice you'd like to share or anything you've learned in the time that you've been in this role?
Ron Snitker: Yeah, sure. Absolutely. I would be remiss as an MBA graduate not to <laugh> value and focus on KPIs. And I'm not just mentioning that because I did go to business school. I have been a long time firm believer that what gets measured can be managed. And I think setting some of those key performance indicators are really smart. And mostly because people can I think, be more motivated by seeing achievable or attainable, incremental, smaller goals that ultimately change the broader picture. And so when I set strategy, I like to set those measurable goals as building blocks. And for us, those we're setting those in the areas that I mentioned before, recruiting, retention, firm culture, programming, leadership development, and community engagement. And some cases those are strictly numbers, and in other cases, they're either a yes or no answer. So I think setting those KPIs and whatever that means to you and your organization, it can be substantive as far as seeing results over the longer period.
A good example, our firm just started participating in July of last year in the Mansfield Rules Certification, which is for the legal industry. And they measure whether law firms and corporations that have legal departments have affirmatively, affirmatively considered at least 30% women underrepresented racial or ethnic groups, LGBT lawyers and lawyers with disability in the areas of leadership and governance roles. So as a quick example of our success, just by participating in that, we doubled our percentage of diverse leadership and our practice group roles here in just one year because of our participation in that certification. And we are going to continue our participation in the 6.0 version because we did see successes in those areas. And the cool thing about the methodology with this Mansfield Rule certification, which is run by Diversity Lab, is its incremental. So as you participate in your first year, the requirements are fewer, in theory, easier, more easily attained than substantive or subsequent rather iterations of the certification.
Abbey Dean: That's a wonderful example. Thank you so much. If you have any links or anything, be sure to send it to me after we're done recording and I'll link them as well. But I will research. That's an excellent example. Similarly, are there other resources or best practices you found or anything at all in your new role that you found for to be particularly instructive or helpful?
Ron Snitker: Yeah for me, first and foremost, I know most industries have diversity related associations and networks. I'm assuming many of your listeners are involved with the Society of Human Resource Management or SHRM. Yes, yes. And they have an extensive list of resources and toolkits that folks can leverage and reference. I would also recommend that people get involved with your local and diverse organizations such as Affinity Chambers of Commerce, and other adjacent associations to your organizations. So that should include educational institutions and any other nonprofits that make sense for your organization. And obviously a big fan of diversity consultants. There's a lot that are doing great work. Obviously check 'em out, get references on them before engaging examples of their work. And I understand oftentimes people don't have the budget to permit that. So you know, can get creative in those resources that you use. And that leads to probably my final tip, and that's find a friend. I network and benchmark directly with competitors in my industry all the time, and we all are on this journey together, and most folks are willing to share what they've learned and advise where they've made mistakes or could have done better.
And so I wouldn't be shy. LinkedIn, you can find people that are having successes in an industry or an area similar to your own, and I would reach out to them and say, Hey, do you have just a few minutes for me to pick your brain? I'd love to introduce myself and have a conversation.
Abbey Dean: Is there anything else that you would like to discuss or you think is important to mention surrounding this conversation that we haven't mentioned yet?
Ron Snitker: The short answer is no. I think the one thing I would like to kind of impart on your listeners is this is a journey and it's a very malleable one at that. And I think that folks need to try not to get frustrated in moving the needle in the DEI space, and especially for professionals, whether you're paid or non-paid in trying to move the needle, that it's important for you to do self-care. You're coming every day with just trying to make inclusion be second nature to our society and also to your workplace. And that can be challenging and frustrating in some days. But other than that, I would just like to say, Abbey, thank you so much. I am with gratitude that I'm able to do this podcast with you and really enjoyed our conversation today.
Abbey Dean: I just want to thank you for being so open and sharing so much of your time and your insight. So thank you. How can people find you, Ron, if they would like to learn more about you?
Ron Snitker: Well having a name as unusual as mine, it's not very difficult to find me. So if you just Google Ron Snitker on the internet other than maybe a past life where I was a professional musician, hopefully you will easily and quickly find my contact information here at Waller from our website and happy to have a conversation or connect with folks as appropriate.
Abbey Dean: I kind of can't wait to Google you and find about your past band or musician life.
Ron Snitker: Well, there might be. Yeah, I was a professional musician and have, my undergraduate degree is in bassoon, and I know with Only Murders in the Building, everyone is hot on the bassoon right.
Abbey Dean: Very hot on the bassoon. Yes.
Ron Snitker: Yes. And it is not lost on me that people are excited. <laugh> excited. So
Abbey Dean: If I find something,
Ron Snitker: Super pumped.
Abbey Dean: I may link it in the show notes, but I'll ask you first.
Ron Snitker: Well, these, it's from many years ago, so there wasn't as much Spotify for professional bassoonists or ensembles at that time. So good luck finding those, but there may be something out there.
Abbey Dean: Challenge accepted. Thank you so much, Ron. I will talk to you again very soon.
Ron Snitker: All right, I appreciate it. Take care.
Abbey Dean: And that is our episode for today. Thanks to everyone for tuning in. Of course. A very hearty thank you to Ron for coming onto the podcast as well. I am very grateful for all of his insight, but I'm also grateful that the topic of the Basoon came up so naturally in conversation. So that is a podcast, first of which I'm very happy for. Please check out the show notes for this episode. If you have not subscribed yet, please do so. Leave us a review. And again, you can even leave us a voicemail message if you want to suggest ideas or have follow up questions to past episodes. Thank you for listening, and I will see you next time.
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